Kittan Lodge #364 Fake?

I recently posted on the new first flap from Kittan Lodge #364, the result of the absorption of Adirondack Council into Twin Rivers Council and the change in Haudenosaunee Lodge #19 to Kittan Lodge.

Recently a new seller appeared on eBay, Discountbar from Hunan China. He has be selling various types of patches including Scout Patches. Descriptions are generic, two piece sets are sold separately, CSP’s are referred to as OA, etc. There has been speculation on Patch-L, that this is another “Chang”; although likely not the same individual.

One of the OA flaps he had for auction was the Kittan S1. Both one traded from a lodge member and one from Hunan China are pictured below:

Kittan Lodge #364 Fake?

Can you tell which is which? I can’t from the scans. Actually the top one is direct from China. The only difference is the ‘import’ feels a bit flimsier like the Plastic Backing is not as thick. Could be a variation within the run or maybe it failed some sort of quality control. I have not seen any more of these issued by that seller; but unfortunately, it seems like there is no way to confidently tell them apart.

John Pannell had a similar post on his blog about the same seller.



  1. john pannell says:

    It’s going to be very unpopular opinion, but in my opinion:

    If there is no describable way to tell them apart — a way that can be succintly described and ascertained with the possession of only one of the patches — then they are both examples of an authenic S1.

  2. nyoatrader says:


    I agree in this case. If you can’t see any difference, even if it an overrun or reprint from the same ‘pattern’ they are both S1’s.

    My understanding that other patches from this seller have distinct differences from the ‘real’ patches.

  3. John says:

    I’ll have to keep an eye on this guy. As far as I know his items are true overruns and copies. I’d appreciate the help if anyone can demonstrate “catalogueable” differences.

  4. Clay says:

    The “genuine” S1 has the clouds touching the top border at the left side of the flap. The other S1 has blue sky between the clouds and the border at this location.

  5. nyoatrader says:

    It does appear that at least in the samples I scanned that your observation is correct. Do you have any other ‘real’ or fake that follow the same pattern (clouds touching or not)?

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