I’m interested in some opinions here.
Note I am not offering this item for sale nor am I brokering it. Just looking for some opinions on both valuing scarce but used cloth and whether you feel a similar item would find its way into you possession.
I was recently contacted by a ex-Scouter who had what appeared to be a Wakpominee 48 F1 in well-used condition. It had been sewn, washed and exhibited at least some box-dirt but overall was still in decent but not great condition.
It is a First Flap with I believe a 9 scarcity on a scale of 1-10.
He asked my opinion about value I had 6 information points:
Tracker Software lists 3 sales by TSPA @ $454, $ 810 and $ 1750 with no mention of condition which would normally mean mint.
From 2 old sale lists from Brush Creek, (3-4 years ago) one F1 was described as very lightly sewn @ $900 and about 4 years ago another “crisp” 48F1 offered @ $800.
One price realized list circa 1992-93 from the sale of a very large NY collection (Don Vanderbilt) listed a 48F1 as selling for $777.
Now overall there may have some appreciation or overall decline in value, but assume $1000 current value as a talking point for a mint 48F1.
1. How much of a percentage discount from a mint specimen would you think would be justified for the used flap pictured above?
2. If there was a similar valued item with a similar scarcity (and condition) from one of the lodges/councils/ areas you collect would you be willing to put it in your collection in that condition?
3. What about if this was the last item you need to complete your prime collection? Would a used item do or would you hold out (and pay) for a mint one?
4. What percentage discount from “mint” would you value a used item at?
I’d be interested in your thoughts. You may email me or leave a comment here.
Updated 5-11-06:
I’ve added comments I’ve received to posting on Patch-L or via email.
In the condition you mention, I would be looking at 1/2 the mint price. This item is definitely being sold in a “down” market. As always, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
blessings
George Jennings
Lou Smith Says:
“Just MHO here:
1. How much of a percentage discount from a mint specimen would you think would be justified?
Depends on how bad I wanted it and how badly “used” it was. For a really scarce piece I’d say from 10% (for a lightly used one), to 25% (for one with noticable use, but in displayable condition) to 90% (for a patch that is missing thread, cut, holed, etc.)
2. If there was a similar valued item with a similar scarcity (and condition) from one of the lodges/councils/insignia areas you collect would you be willing to put it in your collection?
If I didn’t’ have one, you bet I’d be happy to have it! In ANY condition.
3. What about if this was the last item you need to complete your prime collection? Would a used item do or would you hold out (and pay) for a mint one?
Sometimes you can’t live long enough to find that last piece, and in some cases there are no mint examples of a patch known to exhist. I’d buy it and if a mint one came along I’d buy the mint one and sell the used one (upgrade).
4. What percentage discount from “mint” would you value a used item at?
See question #1.
Good hunting!”
Garry V. Says:
Considering that the price of a Mint Patch is arbitrary….how do you figure a percentage discount ?
You are asking how much of an unknown do you discount from an unknown.
I have been in the Stamp Business for many many years. The same rules apply to any collectible market,
The first mistak the novice asks is about the “value” of an item.
The answer is always the same. The VALUE of this material is ZERO!!
The price is something different altogether!
Price and Value are NOT interchangable terms. The professional understands this and this is how we make our money.
We buy worthless items and then resell them for whatever price the market will bear!
If we were to base the price on scarcity the question would then be how many mint examples exist as opposed to how many used examples.
I would imagine that there are way more mint examples of most of these falps compared to used examples.
If ten percent of the known examples are used then does that mean that it is ten times more “valuable” then mint examples ??
Then the question is ……….who wants it and why?
In the stamp market there are many used stamps that sell for hundreds of times and even thousands of times more than mint copies. The reason is scarcity
The difference is that the mint examples were sold in the philatelic marketplace and went into books and envelopes at the collector level and werehoouses at the dealer level. Sometimes only one percent of the printing was actually sold to actually carry a piece of mail.
Some purist collectors only want Stamps that were actually used as postage stamps. They consider the exported stamps sold mint in the marketplace ans nothing more than “stickers”
The difference being that the exported stamps are postal merchandise and the used stamps are postal artifacts.!
When it come to scarce Flaps the same criteria should apply. Flaps sold in the marketplace for collectors are merchandise. A flap actually worn by a Scout or Scouter is an artifact.
Thye questin is who is collecting what and how much mopney will they spend.??
Again, value and price are not the same thing.
All the formula’s you will get from most responders are will all be wrong as the only way to accuratly determine the price of an item is to actually sell it!
Whatever it sells for is the amount of money the buyer is willing to pay for it…..nothing to do with value……thats the price.
My two cents for whatever it is worth to you.
Stay well,
Garry
Eric Hendrix Says:
I have an interesting perspective/example on the side of a cheap csp, my
council’s twill csp. Typically a $1.25 patch; let’s call it patch-a. I have
a mint condition one and I wanted a high amount privately, okay $35.00, call
if patch-b. Well the guy who wanted it laughed at me. I told him it was no
longer for sale, and that if he could find one I would give him $50 for it.
(The offer is only to him, but he has yet to come up with one) My point is
that it’s a very common patch and extremely rare in a true mint condition.
(There are 3 I know of) Patch-a and patch-b are the same exact issue; the
only difference is the condition.
The opposite also holds true. A patch was made in a limited number, let say
30, call it patch-c. I think all but one is in Mint Condition.
Based on rarity, my patch-b from the top example should be worth at least 10
of the bottom example, patch-c. But as you know that usually doesn’t hold
true, so there is some sort of subjective or descretion devaluing the
patch-b. I will call it the overwhelming negative influence of patch-a.
Another factor is the amount one patch has traded. I think back there were
probably 8 or 9 listings of the Riverside CSP up on ebay. I think there was
only 2 and maybe 3 patches. I know at least 6 of the auctions where the
same exact patch – which later sold privately for a really cheap price. His
own showing of the patch brought the sale down because there was a perceived
abundance of this patch.
For example: You mentioned “454, 810 and 1750 no mention of condition,” was
this the same exact patch or where these 3 distinct patches? I looked at
ebay records and could not find a sale of this issue going back to 2003.
Was the sale from one dealer to another? Was the patch properly identified
in the trade? Was the seller honest and what’s their profile? – this can
make a patch sell higher and make it sell lower? Was there outside
influences in the trade?
YiS,
Eric Hendrix
Mike Says:
I devaluate worn first flaps by 50% but could be more if really poor.. YIS–Mike
Ray Gould Says:
I’d hold out for the mint example……I don’t believe I’d ever be satisfied with the worn example…..especially if I was shelling out big bucks (especially since mint examples do exist). As far as value goes, I’ve never valued worn examples at more than 50% of mint (unless they are in excellent/really-really good condition). My 2 cents. Have fun and good luck!
Paul Says:
My experience is that the value is depreciated well LESS than 50% and perhaps closer to 25% on badly used VALUABLE First Flaps (or other collectibles).
I have frequently put medium grade used badges in my collection when the value of the badge was depreciated, with the realization that when I get a condition upgrade I could probably get close to what I paid for the badge in return. As an example if I needed what I believed to be a $250. badge but found one in fairly good used condition at $100. I’d put it in my collection and watch for a condition upgrade. When a mint one came along, I might not pay “retail” ($250) because I did have a used specimen I would none the less be watching and willing to add a mint condition badge at something just under retail, say $200. Knowing that I had the badge represented and could get rid of the used one for about what I had in it.
However, with very high dollar badges my experience is that used condition depreciates them VERY MUCH. For my first flap collection I still need a 241 Tomahawk, prices seem to range upwards of $2500 to $3000. (when you can find them) and every one I’ve ever been offered has been noticeably used and therefore if purchased I’d be watching for a condition upgrade. For me to buy a used 241 Tomahawk I wouldn’t put over $800. in it and consequently the several 241’s available are still in the duplicates of the sellers but condition is the absolute key to very high dollar issues.
At least thats how I see it. Best Regards, Paul
The Kentucky Trader Says:>
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Condition, condition, condition. From your description I would say 60-75%, maybe more.
<< 2. If there was a similar valued item with a similar scarcity (and condition) from one of the lodges/councils/insignia areas you collect would you be willing to put it in your collection?>>
It all depends on how bad I want it. If I am going to have to pay big bucks for a used item and a mint item is not all that much more, I would hold out.
<< 3. What about if this was the last item you need to complete your prime collection? Would a used item do or would you hold out (and pay) for a mint one?>>
Last item, I might pick it up then.
<<4. What percentage discount from "mint" would you value a used item at?>>
Again, condition, condition, condition. Slight use as much as 25% off. Depends on the item.