New York OA Trader

A year ago we posted on the Kamargo Lodge #284 X1.5 and X2.

The X2 has been listed in the Blue Book for some time, it is a cloth arrow sewn to a red neckerchief. They could be removed from the neckerchief and you would have 3 patches; in this case 2 X2’s and an R2. The neckerchief itself, normally has the R2 or R3 sewn to it. The image is an R2 and X2 on the neckerchief.

If you click on the thumbnail, a larger image will open. If you zoom in on the arrow, you can see it is applied to the neckerchief.

The X1.5 is an new addition to Blue Book VI and is described as follows:

294 X1.5 WHT C WHT - - chain stitch arrow worn on NC w/R2

This image is an R3 and X1.5, so the description is inaccurate. It should read on NC w/R2 or R3.

I’m of two minds on this. While the arrows are undeniably different than the X2, they are embroidered on the neckerchief and are not a separate patch and unlike the X2, cannot be removed from the neckerchief.

The question than becomes should it be listed at all or how should it be listed. I think the stronger argument would be to list it as an N1.7. i.e - - RED - - two white chainstiched arrows w/R2 or R3.

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Here is the second installment of the hardest NY OA to collect as submitted by Ray Gould. As mentioned in the previous installment, Ray specializes in old Area 2-G lodges and their successors today.

• #219 Kayanernh Kowa

• X-1.1 “Shadow Clan” patch …time will tell…additional border colors exist not currently listed in BB. NEED!!!

See the first link for the scan and the second for information on the additional border colors.

More lodges after the jump:

(more…)

Here is another case where the Image in the Tracker Software is incorrect for the Kamargo Lodge #294 F2b. OA Images currently only shows the F2a.

You can see them both below.

The Blue Book describes them as:
F2a GRN R YEL DBR LB shape; 53×118 mm; thick arrow; 7 mm fletching; “O” in name is oval; 6 mm thick tail
F2b GRN R YEL DBR thin arrow; 5 mm fletching

Not in the Blue Book description, note that the F2a, the leftmost W tags to the border, in the F2b the K tags to the border.

The image for the Kamargo Lodge #294 F3 is not currently on OA Images and it is incorrect on Tracker.  I’ll send it along to John shortly.

The Blue Book describes it as:

F3 GRN R DYL DBR LB; “O” in name is round; 4 mm thick tail; 4 mm fletching

The ninth slide in the series on neckerchief slides once again comes from Ray Gould. Ray advises:

This slide was produced for members of Kamargo #294. While it appears a home made one-of-a-kind example, I am told it was available for purchase by lodge members. I have seen at least 2 other examples in the collections of #294 members (one was spied at this years #219 banquet being worn by a former 1970’s #294 member. In addition, I believe there are two varieties of this item (size of chipmunk?…coloration?…I’ve seen both but do not remember the exact distinction). As a side note, the example I’ve shown is broken…it should have a red arrow behind the chipmunk…groove where the arrow was placed is on back of slide…I’ve witnessed the un-broken examples and can attest to the arrow’s placement on slide.

The slide reminds me of the work of Roland Flora who handcrafted Boy Scout neckerchief slides and bolos from his shop/store on Route 97, The Slide Farm. Roland passed away several years ago, and the TMR Museum was fortuante to be able to display several hundred of the slides Roland made over the years. Roland made slides for dozens of troops, camp staffs and OA Lodges and chapter over the years.

A while back, Ray Gould had asked for clarifications on several issues relating to Kamargo Lodge #294. I posted on several of these, which you can find by following the links from this page. One I overlooked at the time, was a question regarding the X1.5 and X2.

The X2 has been listed in the Blue Book for some time, it is a cloth arrow sewn to a red neckerchief. They could be removed from the neckerchief and you would have 3 patches; in this case 2 X2’s and an R2. The neckerchief itself, normally has the R2 or R3 sewn to it. The image is an R2 and X2 on the neckerchief.

If you click on the thumbnail, a larger image will open. If you zoom in on the arrow, you can see it is applied to the neckerchief.

The X1.5 is an new addition to Blue Book VI and is described as follows:

294 X1.5 WHT C WHT - - chain stitch arrow worn on NC w/R2

This image is an R3 and X1.5, so the description is inaccurate. It should read on NC w/R2 or R3.

I’m of two minds on this. While the arrows are undeniably different than the X2, they are embroidered on the neckerchief and are not a separate patch and unlike the X2, cannot be removed from the neckerchief.

The question than becomes should it be listed at all or how should it be listed. I think the stronger argument would be to list it as an N1.7. i.e - - RED - - two white chainstiched arrows w/R2 or R3.

It is an embroidered neckerchief that also has a patch sewn on it which would be similar to the 477 Aw Wa Ge N0.5 which is found with and without a flap sewn to it.

Your mileage may vary, and of course, collect what you want and what fits your collection.

More questions on Kamargo Lodge #294.  This time the Blue Book X1, the 10th Anniversary Patch.  This one based on the dates would have to have been issued in 1955.

Ray Gould has continued to dig and from the same source on the previous Kamargo post offers the following.

The 10th Anniversary does not exist.  I have told BlueBook this several times.  (They don’t pay attention).

Ray questions:

 With respect to the X-1, can anyone provide a scan?  I have been told by an additional source it doesn’t exist.  Should the listing be updated with the description “may not exist”?

I don’t have one in my collection, nor is one pictured on OA Images.  What do we know?

This patch has been listed in the Blue Book since the first edition in 1996.  It has also been listed in to prior guide books.

Arapaho, First Edition copyright 1979 list a 294 10th Anniversary patch as the X2 (Arapaho used a different numbering scheme counting P issues as X’s.).  It was described as BRN RED C M/C 10th Anniversary.

The Order of the Arrow in New York State by Al Rosenberger undated, but circa 1981 lists an 294 X2 BRN RED C M/C 10th Anniversary.

So this patch has been listed in the guidebooks for nearly 40 years.  But what is it?  It may not be a lodge issue or it may be some sort of camp patch or other issue.  Or it certainly could be a very small run issue that only a handful still exist (or were ever made) perhaps an early executive committee patch like the 294 A3.

Does anyone have one in their collections or can provide a scan?

I have previously posted several times on the Kamrgo Lodge #294 F1 first flap; here, here, and here.

There have always been some questions regarding it origins and provenance.

Bill Topkis had previously advised me that at least 5-6 copies existed of the half-moon shaped flap in national collections. Local collectors advised it didn’t exist with the circle of old time lodge members from that time.

John Pannell has the image pictured below on his OA Images site (and used with his permission here).

This flap appeared as described in Arapaho and in Al Rosenberger’s “The Order of the Arrow in New York State.” Enough questions have come up over time, that the following language “Possible prototype ” was added to the desription in the last Blue Book (6th Edition).

Ray gould who has been uncovering some previously unlisted issues from the old Area 2-G, has been researching this one as well. The person refered to below, has not given the authorization to use his name . Ray has advised me of the following:

 

XXX is former Lodge Chief for #294 (late 1950’s) and Area II-G Chief (circa 1959-1960 or 1961?). He has been an avid collector of #294 and II-G items (as you know). His perspective on the BB designation for the #294 is clear:

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1. (Also F-1 was a prototype. We rejected the samples–around a half dozen–because they were not consistent!!! F-2 is really F-1, and I had it changed to F-3 because F-2 had a squirrel’s tail and not a chipmunk’s tail. Kamargo totem is the chipmunk. They — BlueBook — still hasn’t paid attention. I was the lodge chief and was responsible for the whole series…F-1 through F-3).

Well, the current Blue Book Edition, has at least paid some attention. Can anyone else provide any clarifications, further information or original sourcing.

Ray suggests:

I propose the #294 be doubly listed as the YF-1 (prototype) with the F-2 listed as the true FF.  I have seen the collection of 2 other lodge members active during this period and neither included the irregular “F-1″.  Each included the F-2’s.

I had previously posted on the 294 F1 Kamargo Flap

Well the auction ended on Ebay at a bit north of $200. A very modest price for an issue of this rarity. Either the deep pocket 294 collectors were absent or looking elsewhere.

Perhaps the documentation needs to be improved, but this seller is from the area where Kamargo Lodge existed.

This is one to keep an eye on.

Back in the early days of the Blog, I posted on the existance of the “half moon -shaped” Kamargo F1. While I received a few offline comments, there was little response. A local collector doubted the existance, or thought it might have been a prototype. Bill Topkis the NAtional Editor of the Blue Book said he was aware of at least 5-6 specimens.

Well one is now available on eBay http://cgi.ebay.com/OA-Lodge-294-Kamargo-First-Flap-Patch_W0QQitemZ7751380868QQcategoryZ39651QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The Link should be good for the next couple of months.

Here is a scan of the flap:

Good luck, I’m sure it will be too rich for my blood.