New York OA Trader

A year ago we were discussing Neckerchief slides, in particular one from Adirondack Lodge Lodge #357 with a scan from Ray Gould.

I have just come across a couple of slides from Ranachqua Lodge, which I’ll be posting on over the next few days.

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Roy More of TSPA recently had an unlisted handmade Adirondack Lodge #357 neckerchief available on eBay. It was described as hand painted with a red silk ribbon border. The design was reminiscent of the X1-3 patches from the lodge.

I traded emails with Ray Gould on the issue since it is his old area (2-G).

I did want you to know that I’ve been in contact with the 1959 #357 Lodge Chief (Doug Cxxxxxxx) who recalls a Scout(er) likely from Watertown, NY area who made this neckerchief as a one-of-a-kind item for personal wear. I will forward his email to you but he is certain it was not a lodge issue (confirmed by many locals). He is also certain it was not a hand-made prototype preceding creation of the #357 N-01. However, some of the similarities are striking and I would not rule out that the neckerchief served as inspiration for the N-01.

If you check out the images in two recent posts, the first on a Thay-En-Da-Ne-Gea #418 neckerchief slide provided by Gavin Murdoch and in an earlier post on a Adirondack Lodge #357 Neckerchief slide provided by Ray Gould you can see the similarities. In the Thay-En-Da-Ne-Gea post, I recounted the following memory.

The slide reminds me of slides sold by Grey Owl which back in the day (late 1960’s and early 1970’s) sold several of these types of slides both plain and with various totems. It was a long subway ride out to nearly the end of the line in Queens, NY to get supplies for Ritual and Dance outfits.

In the comments Ray reminded me of his submission and that woke a memory.

After some digging I came across the neckerchief slide pictured below which I am 99% certain came from Grey Owl. (It was 35+ years ago) Since Shu Shu Gah Lodge’s totem was a Heron, which was not available, I picked up the generic slide below which in place of the totems on the two previous samples, pictures a Native American.

I’ll try to get a better image in the next few days.

Grey Owl may have only been a retailer of these slide and they could have been available from multiple sources.

Ray Gould sends along an image of a fake from Adirondack Lodge #357 which had not previously been pictured at OA Images.

The Blue Book describes the ZS4 as:

ZS4 BRD R M/C BLK fake of S1a; CD; PB; DYL behind sun

The eighth entry in the series on neckerchief slide comes from Ray Gould. It is from Adirondack Lodge #357. Ray advises:

This was an official slide from #357. As I’m sure you were aware, slides like this were utilized by many lodges (the manufacturer would simply place the appropriate totem on the slide…all else would remain the same). Regardless, I have seen a few of these in original #357 collections (where I obtained mine).

Frank Kern recently posted a request for information on Patch-L regarding a shirt he had acquired.

While it may not be apparent in the scans, what makes this shirt unique, is that these were not patches sewn to a shirt, but direct embroidery.

I recently traded for a very interesting scout uniform with the 357 YF1. If

you are not familiar with this item, it is essentially the 357 F1 directly

embroidered into the uniform pocket flap. In addition to this badge, several

others are directly embroidered to the uniform including: Camp Portaferry,

Can-AM-Oree 1946, Jubilee Camporee BSA 50th Ann, Copenhagen RW community-strip, N.Y. RW state strip, etc.

I had seen several samples of this shirt (or the same shirt owned by several different people) over the years, but never had the full story before. Over the next few hours, information trickled in on Patch-L from several posters. I reproduce it here so it is recorded for anyone looking for the same information in the future.

Dave Britton quickly replied:

These shirts were manufactured by Cambridge Dry Goods, a womens sporting goods manufacturer located in Norwood, MA. You may have a neck label that says this. I originally purchased mine (long since sold on auction) sometime in the early 1980’s in one of what then was considered a preppy-type clothing store. Where they maker came up with the idea is anyones guess.

Tracey Mesler wondered:

China Marines (U.S. Marines stationed in China) prior to WWII took advantage of inexpensive but quality labor in the Orient and since promotions came about once every 3-6 years, had their badges or rank, ec., sewn directly onto the uniform rather than sew patches on which might become frayed, torn, loose, etc.

Don Tuttle replied:

Its a long stretch from pre-war China Marines having their rank badges directly embroidered on their uniforms to a 1980s woman’s clothing outfitter’s campy (sorry!) Scout uniform. I first came across this novelty item when I bought at a upstate NY traderee an obviously fake 1960 National Jamboree badge directly sewn on a square of tan cloth. The dealer told me he had chopped up a old ‘Jamboree shirt’ to sell out the patches; he still had the Camp Portaferry patch on his table.
By themselves, the patches and insignia are obvious fakes. The shirt was not official BSA and only simulated the look and color of a well-worn 1960’s Scout shirt. Do we class this item as a spoof/copy intended to deceive? I think not.
I’ve always been interested in the back story of this item. Thanks, Dave, for giving us the Cambridge Dry Goods label and manufacturer in Norwood, MA. Has anyone researched this further?

I think I have seen a Army-style shirt done up with direct-embroidered patches, perhaps by the same manufacturer?

Dave Scocca posted:

The point is, I believe, it was not done by a Scouter. It was done by a women’s clothing manufacturer who wanted a design that looked like a Scout shirt.
Another manufacturer–”Lucky Brands”–made shirts with actual sewn-on patches, some of which were similar to real Scout patches in the designs and inscriptions.
My Broad Creek Winter Camper patch page at:
<http://www.tegularius.org/patches/wintergallery.html>
shows a couple of the “Lucky Brand” fakes which happened to say “Broad Creek Winter Camper”… most of the other patches on the shirt had inscriptions which did not reflect any real patches.
I have photos of a couple of the shirts at:
<http://www.tegularius.org/patches/temp/greenshirt.jpg>
<http://www.tegularius.org/patches/temp/redshirt.jpg>

Frank Kern ended the thread with the following:

I received an off-line reply from a long time collector located near

Copenhagen, NY. Here’s an excerpt from that message:
“We believe these are of Asian manufacture and were originated by Russell

Forbes a 1960’s ADE from Jefferson Lewis Council who eventually moved to

Thailand and died there around 2000.”
Unfortunately, I haven’t been able to uncover any other relevant information

or documentation on this item. It is possible that the shirt was made for

women ’style’ wear - the Cambridge Dry Goods Company does make women’s wear.

However, it is also possible that the company was contracted by this ADE to

make the shirts for local Scouters. There is no data to say which opinion

(if either) is correct. The sad truth is that we cannot say what it is at

this time… so I have to praise our Blue Book editors for listing it as a Y

issue. Regardless, it is a way cool item!

That’s the story to date; anyone have more information?

A scan of the third fake from Adirondack Lodge again provided by Ray Gould.  It is not my intent to encourage the collecting or production of fakes here, but to educate the collector to avoid being scammed.

The Blue Book describes the ZS3 as RED C M/C BLK fake of S1a; Asian EMB

Another Adirondack Lodge #357 Fake from Ray Gould.  This one is the ZS2.

Ray Gould also provides a previously unpictured fake from Lodge #357.

It is the ZS1GRN C WHT RED                   fully EMB fake of F1; Asian EMB

Ray Gould sends along some more suggestions for identifying the Adirondack Lodge S4 varieties.  The Blue Book currently describes them as follows:

S4a      DYL R GRN ROR fine EMB bkgd; BRN beaver

S4b      DYL R GRN RED segmented bkgd; DBR beaver; MVE– colors

S4c      DYL R GRN RED segmented bkgd; BRN beaver

If you don’t have all three in front of you, it is difficult to tell which is which.  What is a segmented background anyway?

Here are scans of the 3 varieties:

Ray’s suggestions involve the differences in the ‘eye’ of the beaver.

S-04a (beaver has embroidered eye)
S-04b (beaver has dimple/small white spot for eye…base material shows through)
S-04c (beaver has no eye)

What are your thoughts?  While still not the easiest variations to identify, I think adding Ray’s comments on the eyes should aid in identification.

Anyone else have some issue varieies that they can rpovide better identification than the current Blue Book descriptions?