New York OA Trader

Updated: I wanted two add two points to the post:

1. As Dave Scocca points out in the comments, the Lodge is referring to itself as Lodge #364 on its web-page.
2. Jonathan Grove asked me to explain the old Lodge Restrictions - Haudenosaunee Lodge #19’s regular issues were unrestricted although they did have some NOAC Delegate issues and an Honor Guard neckerchief that had a very limited issuance. Loon Lodge #364 had the reverse. Some of their anniversaries and NOAC issues were unrestricted, but all of their regular issues were tightly restricted including their one per member Death Flap.

Eric G brings word that Kittan Lodge (the result of the merger between Loon Lodge #364 and Haudenosaunee Lodge #19) has now issued its First Flap. Apparently, they will be following the Haudenosaunee tradition regarding restrictions rather than the Loon traditions.

Apparently, the Lodge totem is the Porcupine. Neither the Lodge “Number” nor Council Number appears on the flap.

Blue Book Stats:
S1 LGR R M/C RED DBL FDL; RED WWW Porcupine climbing Birch tree First Flap

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I have previously posted several times on the Kamrgo Lodge #294 F1 first flap; here, here, and here.

There have always been some questions regarding it origins and provenance.

Bill Topkis had previously advised me that at least 5-6 copies existed of the half-moon shaped flap in national collections. Local collectors advised it didn’t exist with the circle of old time lodge members from that time.

John Pannell has the image pictured below on his OA Images site (and used with his permission here).

This flap appeared as described in Arapaho and in Al Rosenberger’s “The Order of the Arrow in New York State.” Enough questions have come up over time, that the following language “Possible prototype ” was added to the desription in the last Blue Book (6th Edition).

Ray gould who has been uncovering some previously unlisted issues from the old Area 2-G, has been researching this one as well. The person refered to below, has not given the authorization to use his name . Ray has advised me of the following:

 

XXX is former Lodge Chief for #294 (late 1950’s) and Area II-G Chief (circa 1959-1960 or 1961?). He has been an avid collector of #294 and II-G items (as you know). His perspective on the BB designation for the #294 is clear:

————————
1. (Also F-1 was a prototype. We rejected the samples–around a half dozen–because they were not consistent!!! F-2 is really F-1, and I had it changed to F-3 because F-2 had a squirrel’s tail and not a chipmunk’s tail. Kamargo totem is the chipmunk. They — BlueBook — still hasn’t paid attention. I was the lodge chief and was responsible for the whole series…F-1 through F-3).

Well, the current Blue Book Edition, has at least paid some attention. Can anyone else provide any clarifications, further information or original sourcing.

Ray suggests:

I propose the #294 be doubly listed as the YF-1 (prototype) with the F-2 listed as the true FF.  I have seen the collection of 2 other lodge members active during this period and neither included the irregular “F-1″.  Each included the F-2’s.

I have added a number of comments I received directly to an earlier post regarding valuable older First Flaps and what effect condition would have on the price or value.

You can see the original post and comments here.

While not a New York State Lodge, Totanhan Nakaha Lodge #16 has formed from the merger of Tonkawampus #16 and Agaming #257.

Below is a scan of what I believe is their first flap and is at this writing available for trade. Email me with any offers. I prefer new NYS OA issues or anything from my Needslist.

I had previously posted on the 294 F1 Kamargo Flap

Well the auction ended on Ebay at a bit north of $200. A very modest price for an issue of this rarity. Either the deep pocket 294 collectors were absent or looking elsewhere.

Perhaps the documentation needs to be improved, but this seller is from the area where Kamargo Lodge existed.

This is one to keep an eye on.

Back in the early days of the Blog, I posted on the existance of the “half moon -shaped” Kamargo F1. While I received a few offline comments, there was little response. A local collector doubted the existance, or thought it might have been a prototype. Bill Topkis the NAtional Editor of the Blue Book said he was aware of at least 5-6 specimens.

Well one is now available on eBay http://cgi.ebay.com/OA-Lodge-294-Kamargo-First-Flap-Patch_W0QQitemZ7751380868QQcategoryZ39651QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The Link should be good for the next couple of months.

Here is a scan of the flap:

Good luck, I’m sure it will be too rich for my blood.

I’m interested in some opinions here.

Note I am not offering this item for sale nor am I brokering it. Just looking for some opinions on both valuing scarce but used cloth and whether you feel a similar item would find its way into you possession.

I was recently contacted by a ex-Scouter who had what appeared to be a Wakpominee 48 F1 in well-used condition. It had been sewn, washed and exhibited at least some box-dirt but overall was still in decent but not great condition.
It is a First Flap with I believe a 9 scarcity on a scale of 1-10.

He asked my opinion about value I had 6 information points:

Tracker Software lists 3 sales by TSPA @ $454, $ 810 and $ 1750 with no mention of condition which would normally mean mint.
From 2 old sale lists from Brush Creek, (3-4 years ago) one F1 was described as very lightly sewn @ $900 and about 4 years ago another “crisp” 48F1 offered @ $800.

One price realized list circa 1992-93 from the sale of a very large NY collection (Don Vanderbilt) listed a 48F1 as selling for $777.

Now overall there may have some appreciation or overall decline in value, but assume $1000 current value as a talking point for a mint 48F1.

1. How much of a percentage discount from a mint specimen would you think would be justified for the used flap pictured above?

2. If there was a similar valued item with a similar scarcity (and condition) from one of the lodges/councils/ areas you collect would you be willing to put it in your collection in that condition?

3. What about if this was the last item you need to complete your prime collection? Would a used item do or would you hold out (and pay) for a mint one?

4. What percentage discount from “mint” would you value a used item at?

I’d be interested in your thoughts. You may email me or leave a comment here.

Updated 5-11-06:

I’ve added comments I’ve received to posting on Patch-L or via email.